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#21 jax_the_beach_bride

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    Posted 22 March 2009 - 11:57 PM

    Im in the midst of getting a consultation with a photog thats new to the business and a friend of my friend ... we are going to offer to pay for her trip in return for wedding pics... is that unreasonable to offer to someone thats just came out of photography school? or am i just syking myself out before we even have a real consultation... btw thanks for making this thread.. ive been dying to know what other people think about photography

    Mr. & Mrs. Reid
    All my life, I prayed for someone like you... and I thank God that I finally found you!


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    #22 O'Driscoll Photography

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      Posted 23 March 2009 - 01:40 AM

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Nic Dragomire
      Um.. I have a bit of a problem with this statement. at no point do I consider going to photograph a destination wedding a "vacation". Im a professional, with the responsibility of traveling, shooting, archiving, traveling home, and editing to deliver what I hope to be amazing photos to a bride and groom.

      nic


      So true, Nic, so very true!

      As I have photographed a number of destination weddings, I have firsthand experience on what it's like to travel to a totally new city and/or country to document the biggest day of a couple's new life together, and the beginning of their family history. While it is a vacation for the couple, their family and friends, I am there to work hard for them, and to make sure that they get great images - ones that will resonate with them, and that they can cherish and pass on to their children and grandchildren. Not only is there a very full day of work covering the getting ready time, the ceremony, and the reception, but there is also usually coverage prior to the wedding day such as a couple of days before the wedding, the rehearsal dinner on Friday night, and maybe some romantic day after portraits. Not to mention all of the travel time getting to the destination and back home again. Then, there is backing up the images in multiple places, all of the editing when you get home, etc., etc. So, when it's all said and done, I'm going to be out of the office anywhere from 4-5 days or more. And, when I get back to the office I will have a lot of post production work to do as well.

      Please don't get me wrong - I love my job. To me, it is a lot of fun, and very rewarding, to be able to document such an important time in my client's lives and in the lives of their families as well. In fact, it is the best job in the world as far as I'm concerned!

      However, even when I am photographing a destination wedding down in sunny Mexico or in Hawaii, it still isn't a real vacation - as in margarita in hand with my wife by my side and not a care in the world vacation.

      Hope this helps.

      Best wishes,
      Tod

      #23 Kristy!

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        Posted 23 March 2009 - 09:59 AM

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by O'Driscoll Photography
        So true, Nic, so very true!

        As I have photographed a number of destination weddings, I have firsthand experience on what it's like to travel to a totally new city and/or country to document the biggest day of a couple's new life together, and the beginning of their family history. While it is a vacation for the couple, their family and friends, I am there to work hard for them, and to make sure that they get great images - ones that will resonate with them, and that they can cherish and pass on to their children and grandchildren. Not only is there a very full day of work covering the getting ready time, the ceremony, and the reception, but there is also usually coverage prior to the wedding day such as a couple of days before the wedding, the rehearsal dinner on Friday night, and maybe some romantic day after portraits. Not to mention all of the travel time getting to the destination and back home again. Then, there is backing up the images in multiple places, all of the editing when you get home, etc., etc. So, when it's all said and done, I'm going to be out of the office anywhere from 4-5 days or more. And, when I get back to the office I will have a lot of post production work to do as well.

        Please don't get me wrong - I love my job. To me, it is a lot of fun, and very rewarding, to be able to document such an important time in my client's lives and in the lives of their families as well. In fact, it is the best job in the world as far as I'm concerned!

        However, even when I am photographing a destination wedding down in sunny Mexico or in Hawaii, it still isn't a real vacation - as in margarita in hand with my wife by my side and not a care in the world vacation.

        Hope this helps.

        Best wishes,
        Tod
        I'm glad you guys said this. FI and I won our photography and videography on BDW from KLK Photography and Blue Sky Videos. We're just hoping that we can convince Kristi and Paul to take like 5 minutes to relax and party with us! It does sound like a glamourous job, but I can't imagine how difficult it is to be in a beautiful, sunny location and not be able to just relax at the beach. Thanks for all you guys do!

        #24 O'Driscoll Photography

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          Posted 23 March 2009 - 02:11 PM

          Quote:
          Originally Posted by Kristy!
          I'm glad you guys said this. FI and I won our photography and videography on BDW from KLK Photography and Blue Sky Videos. We're just hoping that we can convince Kristi and Paul to take like 5 minutes to relax and party with us! It does sound like a glamourous job, but I can't imagine how difficult it is to be in a beautiful, sunny location and not be able to just relax at the beach. Thanks for all you guys do!

          Glad you found my post helpful, Kristy!

          Here's a little tip: at the end of the night, after your photographers are pretty much all done, tell them they must take a break and relax for a few minutes. My guess is that they will probably welcome a little time to relax, and that they will probably take you up on your offer.

          Hope your big day is stress free, and a whole lot of fun!

          Best wishes,
          Tod

          #25 SunBride

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            Posted 23 March 2009 - 10:11 PM

            Quote:
            Originally Posted by Nic Dragomire
            Um.. I have a bit of a problem with this statement.

            at no point do I consider going to photograph a destination wedding a "vacation". Im a professional, with the responsibility of traveling, shooting, archiving, traveling home, and editing to deliver what I hope to be amazing photos to a bride and groom.

            Although I love to travel and photograph weddings, Im not really going to go into why its not a vacation. If anyone wants to know why, id be happy to respond to a PM. But trust me, if you hire a professional, there's no "vacation" involved.
            Although it may not be a full "vacation" for the photographer, there is still some vacation to it. I mean, you may be working a lot of the time but chances are you do still have some time to relax and enjoy the sunshine.

            I mean, no offense, but on the flip side of what you are saying, I have a problem with photographers saying that travelling to photograph a wedding is not a vacation at all! I guess it depends on how long you are going for and how much you are working. If you are only there 2-3 days then yet, between the travelling and the photographing there may not be much time to relax.

            In my experience, my photographer was there for a full week with us (travelling from Canada, it's pretty much the same price to go for a week or 3-4 days). She photographed all day on the wedding day, and a 2 hour trash the session the next day. Other than that, she pretty much only took photos of us three times, in the couple hours following our arrival, on our trip to the ruins (and she still did her own thing most of the time we were there, she just shot pictures of us for a bit of the time) and one day on the beach she took a bunch of pictures of our group. She took a couple other pictures here and there if she had her camera with her. I would say that over 75% of the vacation she had no obligation to us and didn't even have her camera with her. Now that being said, I realize that she was on this vacation alone, not with a friend, her daughter or anyone else, so it was somewhat of a lonely trip for her, plus she had no say in the location or the resort, so it's definitely not the same as a real vacation. But it would also be totally wrong to say she was working the whole time and didn't get to relax and enjoy the sunshine and beautiful resort.

            Bottom line I think is that the fact that the couple are paying the photographer's trip definitely has to count for something, although it's not the same as if they were giving that amount to the photographer in cash. It may not be a full "vacation" but it's probably still better than being at home! That's why there are so many photographers out there dying to do DWs.

            Not saying all this to attack you personally Nic. I've just read so many times photographers saying that shooting a DW isn't a vacation at all, and I guess I just find it hard to believe they don't find a little time outside the wedding day to enjoy themselves.

            #26 lolkitteh

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              Posted 23 March 2009 - 10:48 PM

              Quote:
              Originally Posted by SunBride

              Bottom line I think is that the fact that the couple are paying the photographer's trip definitely has to count for something, although it's not the same as if they were giving that amount to the photographer in cash. It may not be a full "vacation" but it's probably still better than being at home! That's why there are so many photographers out there dying to do DWs.

              Not saying all this to attack you personally Nic. I've just read so many times photographers saying that shooting a DW isn't a vacation at all, and I guess I just find it hard to believe they don't find a little time outside the wedding day to enjoy themselves.
              OK, I'm not a DW photographer, but I do have to come to the defense of the photographer on this issue. I did spend many years on the road as a consultant, and currently still have a job that involves high travel. I have enough FF miles and hotel points banked for multiple in first class for FI and myself for many years to come. I used to travel about 90% of the time, now it's more like 20-30%. I've been to many exotic places as a result of my job, and for that I'm grateful. But don't get me wrong. It is WORK with a capital W. It was maybe fun for the first couple of trips, but having someone pay for my travel is NOT a perk, it's a necessary expense on the part of my client who wants to engage my skills and services. Sure, it's nice to get out of the house now and then, but I certainly don't look at my business trips as a chance for a fun vacation. High-travel jobs like mine don't retain people for a long time, and when they do, they have to pay a premium, because at the end of the day, travel for work just isn't fun, and people don't like to do it very often.

              I think it is rather unreasonable to think that just because you don't see your photographer "working" all the time that they are just sitting around sipping margaritas on your dime. I'm not a pro (but I tinker), so I would guess that at least 80% of the real work is involved in reviewing, story-boarding, and post-processing the images into something that will work for you. Not to mention organizing and backing up the images against loss. Then there is album creation, (if you have one in your package) that also involves design work. If your photographer was there for four days and you saw her for only the equivalent of one day "working", I can assure you that she spent at least four more days actually getting the images print-ready for you. She probably also spent at least 1-2 days scouting out the shoot locations for lighting and set-up. This is all work that has to take place, whether you see it or not.

              I would also mention that photographers take on a huge risk when going to a DW - here they are traveling to a location where they don't know what the lighting conditions are going to be, what the shoot locations are, and what unexpected, uncontrolled events might take place. All of these things could easily result in an unsatisfied client.

              Frankly, if I were a wedding photographer, there would be no way I'd do a DW in an unfamiliar location. If I were a pro, I'd probably only shoot as a favor to a friend, and not take on any contractual risk. And if I did agree for some reason to shoot a DW, I'd probably be more inclined to charge more, not less.

              #27 Nic Dragomire

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                Posted 23 March 2009 - 10:59 PM

                Quote:
                Originally Posted by SunBride
                Although it may not be a full "vacation" for the photographer, there is still some vacation to it. I mean, you may be working a lot of the time but chances are you do still have some time to relax and enjoy the sunshine.
                with all due respect, where I live, here just 30 minutes north of san diego, we get plenty of sunshine and perfect weather.

                Quote:
                Originally Posted by SunBride
                Bottom line I think is that the fact that the couple are paying the photographer's trip definitely has to count for something, although it's not the same as if they were giving that amount to the photographer in cash. It may not be a full "vacation" but it's probably still better than being at home!
                Im really sorry, but you are wrong again. I really love to get out of town and see new places and meet new people, but that means being away from my life at home with my wife, two dogs, and I can't really work on the road. So I have to put the biz on the shelf, for 4 or 5 days. so really its a trade off although I love to shoot destination weddings.

                Quote:
                Originally Posted by SunBride
                Not saying all this to attack you personally Nic. I've just read so many times photographers saying that shooting a DW isn't a vacation at all, and I guess I just find it hard to believe they don't find a little time outside the wedding day to enjoy themselves.
                trust me, its not a vacation at all.

                I do find time to enjoy myself to some degree, but again, its not like I can surf the morning away then go shoot a wedding.... or go para gliding or zip lining, or take any other chances of being injured while traveling to cover a wedding. I take my job very seriously, and don't take any risks. I LOVE to have FUN! please don't get me wrong... but when its on your dime, I want to do the right thing, and that means playing it safe. Can you imagine your photographer that you paid handsomely, gets hurt the day before your wedding or has a hangover and shows up late or gets sun burned so bad he or she can' move? not this kid. I want you to remember me for taking amazing photos of your wedding not ruining it.

                nic

                #28 Nic Dragomire

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                  Posted 23 March 2009 - 11:23 PM

                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by lolkitteh
                  OK, I'm not a DW photographer, but I do have to come to the defense of the photographer on this issue. I did spend many years on the road as a consultant, and currently still have a job that involves high travel. I have enough FF miles and hotel points banked for multiple in first class for FI and myself for many years to come. I used to travel about 90% of the time, now it's more like 20-30%. I've been to many exotic places as a result of my job, and for that I'm grateful. But don't get me wrong. It is WORK with a capital W. It was maybe fun for the first couple of trips, but having someone pay for my travel is NOT a perk, it's a necessary expense on the part of my client who wants to engage my skills and services. Sure, it's nice to get out of the house now and then, but I certainly don't look at my business trips as a chance for a fun vacation. High-travel jobs like mine don't retain people for a long time, and when they do, they have to pay a premium, because at the end of the day, travel for work just isn't fun, and people don't like to do it very often.

                  I think it is rather unreasonable to think that just because you don't see your photographer "working" all the time that they are just sitting around sipping margaritas on your dime. I'm not a pro (but I tinker), so I would guess that at least 80% of the real work is involved in reviewing, story-boarding, and post-processing the images into something that will work for you. Not to mention organizing and backing up the images against loss. Then there is album creation, (if you have one in your package) that also involves design work. If your photographer was there for four days and you saw her for only the equivalent of one day "working", I can assure you that she spent at least four more days actually getting the images print-ready for you. She probably also spent at least 1-2 days scouting out the shoot locations for lighting and set-up. This is all work that has to take place, whether you see it or not.

                  I would also mention that photographers take on a huge risk when going to a DW - here they are traveling to a location where they don't know what the lighting conditions are going to be, what the shoot locations are, and what unexpected, uncontrolled events might take place. All of these things could easily result in an unsatisfied client.

                  Frankly, if I were a wedding photographer, there would be no way I'd do a DW in an unfamiliar location. If I were a pro, I'd probably only shoot as a favor to a friend, and not take on any contractual risk. And if I did agree for some reason to shoot a DW, I'd probably be more inclined to charge more, not less.
                  thanks for that.... but you really need to get out of my head. My brain is not big enough for the two of us...

                  #29 jax_the_beach_bride

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                    Posted 23 March 2009 - 11:38 PM

                    I think when your travelling from Canada where there is 4 seasons.... a trip to the hot carribbean is a god send especially in Jan or Feb... i suppose its how one looks at the opportunity...

                    All i know is that SunBride does bring up some valid points and i also think that it really depends on the relationship with the photographer... realistically.. the photographer is not going to be treated like a picture slave and if working for 1 1/2 days taking pictures in an exotic locale and having the other 51/2 days to themselves... i would think those 5 1/2 days consist of a vacation in some respects.... I am not downplaying the work and artistry of photographers but for people from Canada who bring local photographers, i would hope they would view it as a great plus rather then a hardship when doing a DW.

                    Mr. & Mrs. Reid
                    All my life, I prayed for someone like you... and I thank God that I finally found you!


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                    #30 lolkitteh

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                      Posted 24 March 2009 - 07:37 AM

                      Quote:
                      Originally Posted by jax_the_beach_bride

                      All i know is that SunBride does bring up some valid points and i also think that it really depends on the relationship with the photographer... realistically.. the photographer is not going to be treated like a picture slave and if working for 1 1/2 days taking pictures in an exotic locale and having the other 51/2 days to themselves... i would think those 5 1/2 days consist of a vacation in some respects.... I am not downplaying the work and artistry of photographers but for people from Canada who bring local photographers, i would hope they would view it as a great plus rather then a hardship when doing a DW.
                      If your photographer actually sees this as an opportunity for a "free vacation", I'd be wary. IMO, if a photographer views the "free travel" as a perk, then they aren't really being all that professional about it, or don't value their time appropriately, or are inexperienced. Or all three. I personally wouldn't hire such a person for my wedding photos.

                      I'm actually pretty surprised at how many brides want to bring their own photographer and don't realize the risk involved, unless the photographer is really good *and* experienced (something for which you will pay for). Those photographers that travel for travel expeneses only are doing so for a reason that isn't beneficial to the bride - what the photographer is really doing is learning and gaining experience on the bride's dime - this is probably more of a motivator than getting a "free vacation". Me, I'd rather have someone who learned on someone else.

                      Another thing to consider is that although local photographers can't be interviewed as extensively as someone you hire at home, they know the shoot locations, the lighting situations, and where the big "money shots" are going to come from. Someone you bring from home won't necessarily know the locations well enough, or have time to scout them out to get the same results. The local ones will know the settings the best, have shot hundreds of weddings in the same location, and know where to good shots are going to be. I think that is a huge factor to consider. Unless the DW photographer you bring from home is really good *and* professional, I personally would be hard pressed to find a good reason to bring one from home instead of hire a good one locally.




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